Singapore Democrats

Despite the traffic jams, I have always enjoy Thaipusam for the colours, festive spirits and rich display of our multi-racial, multi-cultural heritage. Little India also exudes the original charm. I am not sure what the true reasons are, but this is a shame and an about turn for a city eager to promote tourism. Perhaps with casinos now, who needs culture?

I hope people like Teoh Tian Jing would not politicise Thaipusam issue. Unless they know the problem that the Singapore Hindu community has with a bunch of wayward youth, who are bent on marring an otherwise auspicious event, they have no credibility to comment on the issue. If I come a bit too strong, my sincerest apologies, but I would beseech the writer and whoever behind him to confine themselves to political issue, and not trespass onto sensitive religious matters, which should not be exploited for political mileage.

To cut a long story short, Thaipusam is not, to begin with (and on the right note too), a carnival or an event to attract tourists. It is just incidental that it attracts tourists, and other than that, it should not be seen to be an event for merry-making and partying.

What started as a very holy event on the Hindu calendar has, over the decades of extreme neglect, degenerated into an "Indian Swing Singapore". The youth's romping, obscene dancing, rowdyism, fights, insensitive and heterodox behaviour have absolutely no place in Hindu culture, religion and above all not sanctioned by Hindus scriptures.

What you will see in the following clip is what the Hindu community loathes most. Hinduism does not condone this at all. It is unadulterated rowdyism: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3qm4r4yXPc

The few rascals who are bent on destroying the sanctity of the religion have nothing to do with Hinduism: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6TkBZSwjl4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SggY7afaCUI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wd4whcWeack&feature=related

SDP, please, PLEASE confine yourself to your political agenda and DON'T trespass onto MATTERS which provoke people who are serious about their religions.

Multi-culturalism part of SDP's agenda. And Tian Jing has presented how he views the PAP's agenda for social control. He does not have to be a Hindu or "dark-skinned" to talk about the problems of the community.

In my previous article, I said that "In the SDP, we do not focus on race. the colour of our members' skins are not important. Nor is there a need to create a bureau to represent a specific group of people.

Of course, there are still problems that affect specific ethnic groups. These are caused by PAP policies. But when we speak up on these issues, we speak up as a a party, Chinese for Indians, Indians for Malays and Malays for Chinese. We speak as Singaporeans for all Singaporeans. I am confident that it will remain that way."

Is supporting the religious rights and freedom of expression of one community deemed to "trespass onto sensitive religious matters, which should not be exploited for political mileage." Which part of Tian Jing's article hurt Hindu's sentiments?

In every community there are bound to be black sheeps and extremist. Just because they commit certain acts does not mean that the whole community must be punished. You said it yourself in your comment "The few rascals who are bent on destroying the sanctity of the religion have nothing to do with Hinduism: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6TkBZSwjl4&feature=related". It is just a few.

Tian Jing's article is a reflection of the party's culture. Defending the cultural rights of others is in the tradition of Singapore Democratic Party. The party's secretary-general, Dr Chee himself, once stood up for the rights of Muslim girls to don the hijab in school. That tradition will remain in the party.

Compare his article with Lee Kuan Yew's famous comment "Well, we make them say the national pledge and sing the national anthem but suppose we have a famine, will your Malay neighbour give you the last few grains of rice or will she share it with her family or fellow Muslim or vice versa?"

Who's hurting sensitivities now?

It's the PAP that controls and "destroys" religious activities of Singaporeans, be they Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, Taoist and Sikh.

Sesquipedalian, well said.

That how SDP operates - create discontent through wild speculations hatred creation in order to advance its own selfish agenda regardless of the cost to other segments of society.

This is one of the stupidest articles I have ever seen written here.

We has heard enough from bible-toting Kenneth. Now we have a Tian Jing.

If this is the callous mentality of youth that SDP is cultivating, then the party has a big problem coming.

The SDP just reported the truth. No religion deserves to be clamped down. Singapore is a multi-racial society so religions of all kinds should be allowed their activities may it be gongs and drums.

I wonder if its those PR indians who see the local tamils as lower people responsible for this? If so, the local Indians need to band together and drive the caste system out of Singapore.

BryanT,
It's the PAP that wants to control everything in Singapore, including sports bodies. It's time the PAP is exposed for what it is.

PAP should leave religions alone to the followers and not politicize them to advance its myopic agenda. Let the people go; don't constrict them in boxes.

Must be PAP lackeys are here to defend their Masters. Hello!!!! Without understanding in each other culture and religion, this is the problem we see in PAP policies. After this the PAP will come in to defend and be the hero. Please read the article twice, It has nothing to do with each other religion. Why can't both of you see the point. Nobody is here to insult each other religion. SDP is just stating certain points that can be improved on. And Shamin, I agree with you that LKY is the source of our problems in Singapore. He is racist and a conman.

He's not just a racist but a eugenist too. Ironically his grandson has autism and dyslexia. He ain't the cream of the crop too.

My friend of mine posted an article on Autism in the Temasek Review. I feel that LKY is responsible for the plight of autistic people in Singapore.
http://www.temasekreview.com/2011/01/11/i-autistic-but-not-stupid/

Basically what YPAP activist Bryan T is saying is that it is OK for the PAP to continue its oppressive style of handling these issues by curbing individual freedom and/or expression , i.e. take away their rights, so long as there is harmony.

And by harmony, PAP's definition is by the use of Sedition Act. So, people are actually unhappy about this Thaipusam issue, but nobody knows where to channel this frustration.

Good thing that the SDP actually spoke up on this. Shows yet again how kiasee these people are. I been to Thaipusam before and to see the procession taking place in a one lane barricade is quite disgusting to me.

Muhammad Shamin and all those who come in defence of the uninformed writer,

What the SDP thinks of what, and whom it represents, are NOT the concern of a Hindu. And neither is or should be mine!

If you, Shamin, had bothered to peruse (yes, not juts glanced down the page but "peruse") my response, you would observed that practising Hindus wouldn't want this matter to be politicised by anyone.

The Hindu Endowment has the support of all well-meaning, practising, non-partisan, apolitical Hindu majority in Singapore.

If you had only witnessed the rowdies' monkeyshines at Thaipusam and Panguni, you would not be saying what you had said. Put your political inclinations aside and examine what you have seen in the videos. Would anyone who respects his religions allow the same to occur on his auspicious days or on his temple, mosque, church premises?

I don't care and bother what the government's view on the matter. Similarly, I don't bother what any other parties' concerns are. But I am just appealing to everyone here to steer clear of the matter and allow Hindus to handle the matter. Please respect the Hindus' sensitivity.

Shamin, unless you have a solution to the nuisance caused by the good-for-nothing goons in the videos (I have posted), please plug the big, gaping hole in your mouth. Your comments and remarks hurt Hindu feelings. Please, before you succumb to your uncontrollable impulse to shoot off your mouth, I would urge you to read all the letters that had been printed in the media and posted on the net by many irate practising Hindus in the past 20 years about how the sanctity of the religious event having been spoiled and destroyed by irreligious rapscallion!

Shamin speak to practising Hindus what they think about dead drunk Indians who shout and scream, and create helluva nuisance on the Thaipusam and Panguni. Talk to self-respecting Hindus who squirm seeing the sordid spectacles of these scums of the earth.

If you still don't catch the drift of my message and response, let me put it even more simply---is it equitable for the majority of Hindus to bear witness to the denigration?

Pardon me but not all think the way you think, Mr.

That hooligan act that you are talking about is supposed to be in a different subject called "upbringing" lah.

Why agree to restrictions made by authority with stupid reasons??
It seems like the same reason they've made to control your money in your CPF minimum sum requirement when you reach 55 just because of some old men spending away their money. Unreasonable right? Coz it is not going to be you going off to Batam to finish off your money there. It's affecting you, one way or another, no??

This is all about the how authority is cutting your cake slice by slice to leave you scrapping for bits.

By end of the day, your grandchildren will have no culture to celebrate about because you chose to conveniently allow the authority choke you with rules in your throat, leaving you mute!!!

Not many people know about this. Tian Jing has written a very good report here. Thumbs up!!

Sesquipedalian, read my lips: you don't speak for all Hindus and you definitely don't represent or own Hinduism.

Period.

(Yes, I also suspect that you are one of those Hindu Endowment people. Your style is very characteristic. Still remember me from clashing over the Khrishna Mandir issue which you people slipped and admitted was a "political" issue?)

I agree that alcohol and drunken behaviour defiles a religious event such as Thaipusam.

But don't you dare turn this opportunistically into an issue only of drunkenness.

Why don't you give us the PAP-HEB's justification for the banning of religious music played on traditional temple instruments? Are the priests drunk when they are playing those?

Or painted faces? Do people suddenly get the urge to paint their faces only when drunk?

And why don't you also address that fact that the Thaipusam public holiday was rescinded in the 1980s at the height of Lee Kuan Yew's Confucianist binge, and in the midst of his collision with JB Jeyaratnam? (The Chinese have two days of public holidays and three if they are Buddhist as well; Muslims have two days. Hindus have only one.)

This is not a religious issue; it's strictly a political one just like the Khrishna Mandir issue.

SDP is correct to raise this; it falls within their purview.

Sorry everyone... I did not know that there were no editing features here, hence, I clicked 'send" without checking. The following is the corrected version:

Muhammad Shamin and all those who come in defence of the uninformed writer,

What the SDP thinks of what, and whom it represents, are NOT the concern of a Hindu. And neither is it---nor should it be---of mine.

If you, Shamin, had bothered to peruse (yes, not just glance down the page but "peruse") my response, you would have observed that practising Hindus wouldn't want this matter to be politicised by anyone, much less by politicians.

The Hindu Endowment has the support of all well-meaning, practising, non-partisan, apolitical Hindu majority in Singapore.

If you had only witnessed the rowdies' monkeyshines AT Thaipusam and Panguni (note the use of preposition), you would not have said what you actually had. Put your political inclinations aside and examine what you have seen in the videos. Tell me, would anyone who respects his religion allow the SAME ignominy to occur on his religion's auspicious days, or even on his temple, mosque, church premises?

I don't care and bother what the government's view on the matter is. Similarly, I don't bother what any other political parties' political concerns are. But I am just appealing to everyone here to steer clear of the matter and allow responsible Hindus to handle the matter ourselves. Please respect the Hindus' sensitivity.

Shamin, unless you have a solution to the nuisance caused by the good-for-nothing goons in the videos (I have posted), please plug the big, gaping hole in your face. Your comments and remarks, to say the least, hurt Hindu feelings. Please, before you succumb to your uncontrollable impulse to shoot off your mouth, I would urge you to read all the letters that had been printed in the media and posted on the net by many irate, practising Hindus in the past 20 years about how the sanctity of the otherwise religious event have had been spoiled and destroyed by irreligious rapscallions!

Shamin speak to practising Hindus what they think about inebriated Indians who shout and scream, and create helluva nuisance on the Thaipusam and Panguni. Talk to self-respecting Hindus who squirm seeing the sordid spectacles of these scums of the earth.

If you still don't catch the drift of my message and response, let me put it to you even more simply---is it equitable for the majority of Hindus to bear witness to the denigration and suffer in silence?

And Dawkins, please do not provoke yet another India-Indians and Singapore-Indians controversy theory. And if you should, use not this Thaipusam issue!

Dawson, banish those suspicions about PR Indians being behind this. This assault on Thaipusam began long ago. Hindus by and large do know, understand and accept that the religion is an incredibly heterogenous one with hundreds of different expressions of it.

All Hindus know that Hindu groups other than their own celebrate festivals that they themselves don't; diversity has been with Indians for ages. If the majority of Singapore's Hindus were Bengali instead, we might be discussing the Durga festival instead; the hypothetical minority Tamil Hindus would have had no problem with that if not for the adulteration of mutual respect among Indians that the PAP has sowed.

This is just the PAP's philosophy of beating, conformity, and good-as-gold Confucianist fairy-tale behaviour, and homogeneity into Singaporeans.

The post by YD it does bring up some interesting questions: why do the authoritiaties have to enact so much control over the Thaipusam procession?

Sesquipedalian does have a point in saying Hindus should ultimately be the ones who decide culture and how the Hindu Endowments Board run these events. Ultimately Hindus do have have the expertise and knowledge to best determine how you wish to shape the way you practive your religion. I can't say much for the poster named Bryan Ti who seems to have a bone to pick with this party.

Then again Sesquipedalian, you have to ask yourself, who gave you the right to determine the values of Hinduism? Are those Hindu values or your own values? Think about it. And i don't see what is wrong with the SDP speaking up on this issue. Sure, you may see it as a an attempt to politicize the religion but this is actually also a matter of freedom of expression and assembly. They're asking pretty valid questions although you may not think so.

SDP does not interfere in the spiritual affairs of anyone . The party respects sensitivities of religious communities. We are not here to lecture you on what you should do or not do in your religion. However, this is an issue of rights. The act of a small group cannot possibly lead to the deprivation of the cultural rights of the many.

Your claim that the act of the Hindu Endownment Board reflects the sentiments of Hindu people here is at best just an assumption. To what extent does decision making in the HEB involves the participation of the Hindu masses?

HEB is a religious statutory board under the PAP government. While claiming to be secular, it has complicated matters by including religious bodies into its fold which usually operate through appointment by the Government. This is a problem as the legitimacy of the actions of such bodies will be put into question by the public and the followers of the religion.

I am of the opinion that a true representative of the community would come from NGOs, NGIs, civil society actors. Not from an appointed bodies by the government to speak on behalf of the community. By doing so, the legitimacy and independence of such bodies becomes questionable as it will be seen as a mouthpiece of the ruling party which will cause unhappiness in the community or lacking credibility thus failing to gain popular support from the masses.

If decisions can be made by "letters that had been printed in the media and posted on the net by many irate practising Hindus in the past 20 years", why not remove the PAP from government as for over 50 years, there has been a lot of resentment from the people over its rule?

This term "don't politicise this and that" is very familiar. I remembered the Minister of Health saying that healthcare should not be politicised. If by speaking up on this matter is seen to be "politicising " then so be it.

This matter if not raised, will increase the resentment of the followers and lead extreme elements to believe that this is an attack on their religion and motivate them to commit violent acts.

Saiber,

You asked, "Sesquipedalian, you have to ask yourself, who gave you the right to determine the values of Hinduism?"

My answer: "The Hindu scriptures."

You asked, "Are those Hindu values or your own values?"

My answer: "They are from the Hindu scriptures."

SDP IS politicising this issue. Leave the religion to its practitioners. Leave the matter to practising Hindus who know what the religion is. Just stay out of the matter.

Once again, what the government or the opposition thinks of what IS right for Hindus is not the issue here---central to the problem is youth AND others denigrating Hinduism; hence, let Hindus decide: we have the scriptures FOR and AS our guide. PLEASE look elsewhere to score political brownie points.

Muhammad Shamin,

To begin with, THE matter has absolutely nothing to do with "culture". Please, for Heaven's sake!

The issue at question concerns Hinduism and its valid scriptures. Unless you know what the scriptures have said about the matter, you are well-advised to stay out of this. Don't try to teach your grandmother to suck eggs!

Keep your pontification about "rights" to yourself and allow practising Hindus to make a decision (primarily) based upon the valid, authoritative scriptures.

Your observation, "The act of a small group cannot possibly lead to the deprivation of the cultural rights of the many" patently shows how much you know about what has been happening, and what the Hindu community here has been doing for the past four decades to tackle this degenerating problem.

Shamin, for this reason, therefore, I reiterate, unless you are a practising Hindu AND have solutions for the problems, please stay out of this. You may find your audience in less amorphous issues! NOT in THIS!

You don't preach to practising Hindus what SHOULD be right and ought to be done, and who should make a decision that concerns their scriptures and religion. Unless you have citations from the authoritative Hindu scriptures to back up any claims regarding this issue, you have lost the "locus standi" to comment on the issue.

Once again everyone, this concerns Hinduism, Hindu scriptures AND practising Hindus. Please do not drag it into a forum that talks about mundane politicians and human politics. If you respect human feelings, and if it means anything at all to you not to hurt spiritual feelings, please desist from indulging in this mindless politicisation.

No one is here to teach you, your religion. This issue is obviously about rights. Religious practices fall under cultural rights. There is no need to quote from any scriptures as this is a purely worldly affair, not a spiritual matter.

Perhaps the only one who is hurt here is you.

"SDP IS politicising this issue. Leave the religion to its practitioners. Leave the matter to practising Hindus who know what the religion is. Just stay out of the matter. "

Are you saying that you speak for every practicing Hindus regarding these new set of guidelines? Do you have any statistics to show that the majority of Hindu or devotees are happy with these restrictions?

If you say "let the Hindus decide", are we talking about the government appointed Hindu Endowment Board members?

-------------------------------------------
"The Hindu Endowments Board (HEB) under the purview of the Ministry of Community Development Youth and Sports (MCYS)"

http://www.heb.gov.sg/aboutus.html

Both the Hindu Endowments Board and the Hindu Advisory Board are headed by Chairpersons appointed by the Minister for Community Development Youth and Sports. There are presently 16 members in HEB and 12 members in HAB.

Muhammad Shamin,

How callous can one be!

Like I said, do not bring your "rights" palaver into this issue. This exclusively concerns Hinduism, its scriptures, and especially practising Hindus. It has no place for interlopers.

As you do not cotton on to rudimentary differences between "culture" and "religion/spirituality", it is in your interest to pore over these even before you venture sticking your paw in every sensitive pie.

We take instructions from authoritative scriptures. And this matter at hand concerns the issues of the scriptures, and as you have no knowledge of the Hindu scriptural injunctions, shouldn't you restrict yourself to domains that will tolerate ignorance!?

Orange,

Who heads what and who comprises which committee and which ministry takes care of whom are not the Hindus' (who are irate about politicisation) problem or concern. It is of the politicians.

What the HEB had said chimes in with the scriptures. What it has laid down as rules completely agree with the Hindu religion. Hence, Hindus support the scriptures---even those who do not know that entities such as HEB or what-ever-advisory board exists would support the move.

On this score, if a person is a practising Hindu, he abides by the scriptures. And if the scriptures contain the prohibitions that the HEB has come up with, it doesn't mean the practising Hindus are obeying the HEB.

Sesquipedalian,

You speak of Hindu values and Hindu scripture. According to my Hindu friends, you're simply trying to browbeat commentators like Shamin and the writer of this article.

Why don't you quote the chapter and verse from the supposed authoritative scripture that you are trying to rely upon? My committed Hindu friends are prepared to take you on this.

My practicing Hindu friends abhor the latest restrictions issued by the Hindu Endowments Board. To them, the board stifles the Thaipusam spirit so much so that Hindu Singaporeans head towards places like Kuala Lumpur and faraway Penang to mark this important religious festival, thus avoiding the suffocating atmosphere here.

In Singapore, Thaipusam was a public holiday before but the so-called gatekeepers of Hindu values and scripture in HEB scrapped the holiday. There was not a whimper. Over the years, the PAP came out with more and more restrictions for Thaipusam. Now, it is a heavily policed and fortified nonevent along a single-lane, in keeping with the edict of the PAP Juggernaut.

1. HEB is a government statutory board. (Key word: GOVERNMENT).

2. Singapore is a secular state. Not a theocratic state. (Key word: Secular)

3. SDP is not a religious party that seeks to TEACH YOU YOUR RELIGION.

Conclusion:

1. Being an appointed body by the government, HEB does not have legitimacy to rule spiritual life of Hindu's in Singapore. To gain legitimacy, it will require that the board be elected by the constituents of the faith, through participatory democracy. However, doing so would seem that they are already a government on it's own.

2. We are a secular state so there is no need to discuss your scriptures here. If HEB wants to impose its ruling in the worldly affairs of its followers, then it should consider disbanding itself and apply to become a religious party that could vie for political powers.

3. SDP is not a religious organisation that seeks to TEACH YOU YOUR RELIGION. So we are not interested in what your scripture says. We are interested in the protection of the cultural rights of "followers of Hinduism", who are citizens of this country.

Sesquipedalian,

Not a very smart answer. Other people may interpret the Hindu Scriptures differently than yours. Religion is not a closed book.

SDP isn't politicising this issue. Once again asking tough questions about Freedom of Expression and Assembly is part and parcel of democratic life. By not asking these questions you're actually leaving it to the few in the state to determine the values of the religion. But i suppose it takes less daft people than you to figure that out.

Seebeng,

You said, "You speak of Hindu values and Hindu scripture. According to my Hindu friends, you're simply trying to browbeat commentators like Shamin and the writer of this article."

My reply to that is: I merely tell you what Hindu scriptures' stand on the issue is. You needn't be intimidated by bare, cold scriptural injunctions. If you have been, then, you have still not seen the object of my posting.

You said, "Why don't you quote the chapter and verse from the supposed authoritative scripture that you are trying to rely upon? My committed Hindu friends are prepared to take you on this."

My reply to that: Now we are getting somewhere. Not only would I be pleased---more than JUST pleased--- to cite the authoritative scriptures, but also am prepared to take your soi-disant "committed Hindu friends" on publicly for a PUBLIC DEBATE: provided (of course) you and your friend should aver that you should come NOT as a representative of the SDP or any particular group or organisation but as AN individuals who want to be disabused of your thoroughly misconceived notions about what Hinduism and Thaipusam mean.

A public debate should settle the matter. And, once again, as it has always been my stand (since I posted on this issue), this is NOT an apposite forum to talk about the Hindu scriptures, spirituality and Thaipusam (vis-a-vis Hinduism). If you insist, then, count me out.

I am all for the Truth. I am all for providing evidence that would stand the test of time. Thus, in this proceeding, I would prefer it is done in a proper manner that will leave even those who disagree with the detractors' views satisfied.

About all other matters, which are mere red-herring, that you mentioned in your posting, as they are not the reason for which I had written my piece, so they do not bother me or any others who had been chagrined BY the ill-conceived article on Thaipusam. (Remember, how and why I posted my first piece. Do not veer from that.)

I would advise you to start a new thread on those other matters, and discuss them with people who come in defence of whoever. And for whatever I am worth, I shan't be in THAT discussion.

Please let me know how you are about what I had suggested in para.4.

Sesquipedalian is just trying to make a religious issue out of SDP's article and dragging the party into a religious debate. All religion claim to be the truth and all others to be falsehood. The platform for such debates is not in the party nor in the parliament.

Of course, Shamin.

Sesquipedalian is just crying his little beady eyes off and trying to drag this debate into the gutter.

As Saiber has repeatedly said, it's a matter of freedom of association and expression. Then this Sesquipedalian (check the definition on google) goes on and on long and ponderously on the Hindu scriptures. Yah, right! As though you're the only one who can interpret the Hindu Scriptures!

Shamin and gang. I suspect this is a trap and that person might be implanted by the PAP to lead all the SDP into this debate which they can use it to discredit the SDP and arrest all of you under ISA. So no more SDP for this election. They will use it to show the whole of Singapore that SDP is a racist party that bend on discrminating the Hindu. You will lose. Please be careful.

SDP policies are working and the PAP are afraid of you. Period. Dr Chee for PM of Singapore. Such a honest guy he is. Not greedy and corrupted at all. We stick to this clean image of yours ok. I will keep on supporting you people. My vote is already yours to begin with. SDP for all true blood Singaporean ok. PAP for foreigner and new citizens.

My suggestion for you to take a stand against PAP for politicizing HEB.

Sesquipedalian, if you want to keep alluding to Hindu scriptures, then let me ask you thess:

1. Where in any Hindu scripture is is said that temple musical instruments cannot be played at Thaipusam?

2. Where in any Hindu scripture is it said that the government of a country where Thaipusam is held has the right to discriminate against Tamil Hindus and rescind the public holiday that was previously granted to them?

2. Where in any Hindu scripture is it said that the exuberance that many young men display at Thaipusam - thought necessary to keep the often flagging spirits of a kavadi carrier especially if it is a spiked kavadi - when not under the influence of alcohol, is a criminal act? Do those same Hindu scriptures spell out the details of mens rea and actus reus that qualify exuberance as a criminal act?

Face it: what Teoh Tian Jin has written about and what we are talking about has absolutely nothing to do with Hindu scriptures.

We are not talking about the religious aspects of Thaipusam here; this began purely a discussion on the logistical aspects of the annual Thaipusam procession. I am also suggesting that there is a political aspect to this.

So don't try to extricate yourself from your own political role in this.

I refer to this article reporting that M Ravi has initiated legal action on this matter. (I hope that Ravi is reading this.):

http://www.temasekreview.com/2011/01/13/newsflash-originating-summons-served-on-agc-and-heb/

In his originating summons, he makes references to constitutional articles 9, 12, 14 and 15. I am of the opinion that in addition to those, Article 152(1) (Minorities and special position of Malays) is also pertinent. Indeed, I believe that Article 15 (Freedom of Religion) is a guarantee provided to all Singaporeans, but Article 152 augments the Government of Singapore's legal obligation to the Tamil Hindu minority:

"It shall be the responsibility of the Government constantly to care for the interests of the racial and religious minorities in Singapore."

Further, the Presidential Council for Minority Rights (PCMR) has been tasked to 'to be a safeguard and check against the government implementing any discriminatory laws. It is tasked to ensure that new laws passed by Singapore's Parliament are not discriminatory against any race, religion or community'.

(Note: In the 41 years of its existence, the PCMR has NEVER found occasion to exercise its mandate.)

http://infopedia.nl.sg/articles/SIP_1605_2009-10-31.html

However, here is where it gets dicey. From the same link directly above, these are the members of the PCMR:

Justice Chan Sek Keong (Chairman)
Lee Kuan Yew (Member)
Tuan Haji Othman Bin Wok, DUNU (Member)
Goh Chok Tong (Member)
Prof S Jayakumar (Member)
S Dhanabalan (Member)
Lee Hsien Loong (Member)
Prof Walter Woon (Member)
H. R. Hochstadt PPA(G), PPA(E) (Member)
Sat Pal Khattar (Member)
Prof Lim Chong Yah, BBM, PJG, DUBC (Member)
Oscar Joseph Oliveiro (Member)
Dr Andrew Chew Guan Khuan, PJG, PPA(E), DUBC (Member)
Haji Shafawi Bin Ahmad (Member)
J Y Pillay (Member)
His Grace Archbishop Nicholas Chia (Member)
Othman Haron Eusofe (Member)

Clearly, there is a blatant conflict of interest here with four sitting members of the current cabinet being at the same time members of the Council. Can they be expected to overrule their own discriminatory actions in Parliament when acting in their capacities as Council members?

What of Chan Sek Keong's role in the legal action initiated by Ravi? Is there yet another conflict of interest here?

In Ravi's originating summons, he states, "The enforcement of the Thaipusam guidelines endanger the safety and personal liberty of devotees who seek music and dance from their supporters."

For those who might not know what that means, I am going to attempt an explanantion.

1. A devotee or a group of devotees make/s a prayer to Lord Muruga promising that if that prayer was answered, he/she/they would carry the kavadi on Thaipusam in gratitude.

2. However, the carrying of the kavadi is not the easiest way to express one's thanks. There are the weight of the kavadi, the trance that be induced, the hot sun, the length of the walk, and the previous fast that weakens the body and that preceeded all of this to be considered; a threat to the kavadi carrier's life and safety is real.

3. Knowing and realizing the above, those close to the kavadi carriers - family members and friends, and even strangers who understand the underlying reasons for all of this - pledge to do their utmost to help their loved one/s (or any stranger) through the difficulties of carrying the kavadi. They do this by playing inspirational (religious) music, singing hymns, chanting, and dancing, all of which keeps the kavadi carrier concious and energetic enough to complete their 4km journey (in Singapore) and more importantly, keep their vow to carry the kavadi AND complete the entire journey.

4. By not allowing for the supporters of kavadi carriers to do what has been traditionally done, the PAP government is in fact endangering their lives; there have been known cases of kavadi carriers who have fainted, and/or lost consciousness, and/or die of thirst/hunger/fatigue either from not having that support or for other reasons.

The belief in Thaipusam is that the maximum number of props to a person's strength to complete the journey is essential, be that by music, mantra, hymn, or any other inventive mode. None of this is proscribed in any Hindu text - HEB cannnot claim any monopoly on the knowledge of this on that count; it's always, as Hinduism has always been, a result of human ingenuity to deal with any new circumstance/s that we have what we have today.

Sesquipedalian's claim that Hindu scriptures at behind this is false.

However, these are the current religious beliefs of the descendants of the beliefs I am talking about. Whether or not there is any documented evidence of what I have described above can be scientifically proven is not important. The only important thing here is that these are the beliefs of a people who also happen to be a constituent people in Singapore.

The law is obliged to acomodate that.

Seebeng,

Have you spoken with your "committed Hindu friends" about the challenge that I have thrown to you and them. (I am still waiting for your response to my call for a public debate).

Robox,

You asked, "Where in any Hindu scripture is is said that temple musical instruments cannot be played at Thaipusam?"

I reply: Please read my postings carefully so that we do not have to waste time going over what had already been discussed.

You asked, "Where in any Hindu scripture is it said that the government of a country where Thaipusam is held has the right to discriminate against Tamil Hindus and rescind the public holiday that was previously granted to them?"

I reply: Once again, please read my postings, and may I appeal to you not to politicise the issue.

You said, "Where in any Hindu scripture is it said that the exuberance that many young men display at Thaipusam - thought necessary to keep the often flagging spirits of a kavadi carrier especially if it is a spiked kavadi - when not under the influence of alcohol, is a criminal act? Do those same Hindu scriptures spell out the details of mens rea and actus reus that qualify exuberance as a criminal act?"

I reply: Have you read my postings, especially the last one to Seebeng or are you pretending, or seriously, do you really have a problem with comprehension. You come across as a thoroughly confused individual, who cannot see beyond the end of your nose. The Hindu scriptures have exact details as to how the ceremony should be celebrated. For further details, please refer to para.4 of my posting to Seebeng.

You said, "Face it: what Teoh Tian Jin has written about and what we are talking about has absolutely nothing to do with Hindu scriptures."

I reply: He has politicised the issue.

You said, "We are not talking about the religious aspects of Thaipusam here; this began purely a discussion on the logistical aspects of the annual Thaipusam procession. I am also suggesting that there is a political aspect to this."

I say: What aspect you see in in is not the issue. Any person with a brain can choose to see anything in anything. Looking at things in perspective requires brains (note the plural).

You proclaimed, "Sesquipedalian's claim that Hindu scriptures at behind this is false."

I challenge you: Take up the challenge that I threw to Seebeng and others to have a public debate on this matter. But of course, see my conditions in that challenge. Do not masquerade your nescience and destitute of knowledge by sounding legalese. Even a lay can see through that chicanery.

Sesquipedalian,

I have viewed all the youtube links you posted and I don't see what is wrong with the festivity you called rowdy. Read the comments too. They are all happy with the "rowdiness".

Compare it with the NDP and the so called celebration after the parade. Compare with Swing Singapore some years ago. Compare with Hungry Ghost festival. Compare with Chinggay. Compare with Sentosa beach party. We must ban all or not at all.

Sesquipedalian,

It is funny how you tell people not to politicise the issue. If it is strictly a religious issue, the Hindu priests can simply tell the devotees to stop doing what they have been doing, and that would have solved the problem. Why must pass a law to prevent it.

You must decide either tell the PAP to stop politicising the issue, or tell yourself to stop spiritualising the issue.

Johnltan,

As it is strictly a religious issue, let practising Hindus to comment on it, and find a solution to the problems. In an effort to gain political mileage, no one should exploit the situation.

The scriptures are quite clear as to the solutions. The rest who are not part of the problem should mind their own business.

Thanks Robox. It can be clearly be seen that PAP are indeed are controling PCMR. You look at the number of cabinet people in it. Clearly they are taking orders from PM Lee who is a member also. Like this, all of us can suck our thumb. They are controling everything including our religion which they have no right and say. By the way in MUIS, LKY and PM are also in the management council. So anything happened to the Malays/Muslims are actually their doing and not because of Malays' loyalty issues and Mas selamat or what happened in Sept 11.

Sesquipedian, I AM very willing to take up the challenge, not of the one that you imagine that you posed to seebeng, but instead the one that HE posed to you.

But very comically, this same challenge that you supposedly posed to seebeng is also one that you will not be present at?

WHY?

No testicular fortitude?

To all non-Hindus in this thread, and especially Teoh Tian Jin:

Please don't feel guilty by any Hindu guilt trips against what you are doing here; Sesquipedalian's efforts are typical of what has been called anti-racism gone awry.

The mark of any magnanimous politician is when s/he is able to identify any violation of human rights, and is able to transcend his or her own identity and defend the rights of others anyway. Indeed, liberalism demands exactly that: liberalism knows no boundaries of race or skin colour, religion, or even national boundaries. Liberalism respects all humanity and by extension all human rights.

I expect no less than this of the SDP.

For some reason I never discovered, my (very Chinese Teochew) uncle used to attend the Thaipusam ceremony ever since I can remember. Perhaps it was because he had been evacuated to India and had spent time there during the War.

We children, all ethnic Chinese, were always thrilled with his stories of the parade along Serangoon Road and he even taught us to chant "Vell Vell !! Vell Vell !!" with great enthusiasm. So I remember this Hindu festival with some fondness.

Nobody ever minded the road being temporarily closed and the traffic briefly stopped while the parade wended its colourful way to the temple with chanting, cymbals and drumming. It was a sight to behold that seized and held everyone's interest because it was quite obviously genuine, a world removed from the patently faked, govt-organised, pseudo-cultural event that is Chingay.

I think it's desperately sad that the HEB has now become so politically correct that it is dumbing down a tradition that dates back to long before the PAP was born. What next? Will the Thaipusam ceremony be confined to temple grounds by law in future with devotees made to watch on giant screens in approved venues upon buying a ticket?

No chanting, no singing, remain seated at all times on pain of arrest and recite those hollow words, "...one united people, regardless of race, language or religion...". Will devotees have to take a coach to Malaysia to properly celebrate their faith just as the Chinese have to go to JB to let off a firecracker or two during CNY?

HEB is over-seen by civil servants beholden to the ruling party for their monstrous pay and perks. Is it any wonder that over-egging the pudding and gold-plating the slightest PAP wish has become a way of life?

It falls under the purview of the Ministry of Community Development Youth and Sports (MCYS). Now, guess which Minister is in charge of that Ministry? Yep, the same guy that took an $8m private plane jolly (at taxpayer's expense) around the world bearing the YOG flame. The same one that declared the price "well worth it" when costs ballooned to $300m. The very one who averred in Parliament that $360 per month was 'too much' for the destitute.

The question really has to be asked: why is it that everything this person touches turns to dross?

Norman,

You said, "I have viewed all the youtube links you posted and I don't see what is wrong with the festivity you called rowdy. Read the comments too. They are all happy with the "rowdiness"."

My reply to you: Obviously, a person who has NO knowledge of the Hindu scriptures AND who is also NOT a practising Hindu will NOT "see" anything "wrong" with the "rowdies".

You observed, "Compare it with the NDP and the so called celebration after the parade. Compare with Swing Singapore some years ago. Compare with Hungry Ghost festival. Compare with Chinggay. Compare with Sentosa beach party. We must ban all or not at all."

My reply: This is exactly again my point. Do not compare Thaipusam with the others. You, like the ignorant writer of the article and many other ignoramuses like Shamin, JohnlTan, Seebeng and Robox, are merely politicising a problem, which is solely the concern of Hinduism and practising Hindus.

Haven't I made myself clear enough? Must you underscore my point by providing further evidence of your crass ignorance?

'Sesquipedalian, adj. - given to the overuse of long and ponderous words'. Heh, a very apt choice of nickname.

Long-winded obfuscation to lay down the tacit OB markers, izzit? Best leave this crass decision to the REAL Hindus because anyone who criticises this gross over-reaction by a fat, self-serving govt Quango cannot possibly be a genuine Hindu? Everyone here is ignorant but me and thee - and I have my doubts about thee.

Don't you dare politicise our epic fail cockup which has all the potential to blow up nastily in our face at the ballot box! Visions of Malaysia's Samy Vellu and his MIC being driven from power by angry and fed-up Indians...

Now where have we recently come upon that very admonition not to meddle? Something along the lines of, "Set up a political party if you want to criticise us - or else we'll gazette you..." was it not?

Hahaha! Nice try, no cigar.

Robox,

I understand that you are all of a doodah; nonetheless, I shall make it simpler for you to cognise what was between Seebeng and me: he wanted proofs and citations from the scriptures that I said had the prohibitions against the un-Hindu, heterodox behaviour of the miscreants. I told him that he made my day, hence, invited him to a public forum where not only will I show abundant of cogent proofs FROM THE AUTHORITATIVE HINDU SCRIPTURES that will put paid to his ignoble notions about Hinduism/Thaipusam, but also will I give others in the audience the chance to riddle me with questions.

In such a public forum without any political agenda we could in full public view debate. We don't need the cloak of psydonymns. As you are helping a lame dog (Seebeng) over a stile, you want take me on, on THAT challenge. Or are you going make yourself scarce with your tail between your legs?

Sesquipedalian, Your version - the HEB's version - of Hinduism is the only correct one.

By the way, if you can provide scriptural proof of your extravagant claims at any forum, you can also provide that same proof here.

Are you also next going to claim that temple musical instruments should be banned at a Hindu marriage ceremony since it is also not in the scriptures?

And who authored those scriptures that you speak of, anyway? The HEB? And is Lee Kuan Yew's the invisible hand in that authorship?

And yet another thing, Sesquipedalian. Scriptures - your personal version or otherwise - aside, what do you have to say about the constitutionality of the HEB rules?

Or does LAW not matter to you just like your it does not matter one bit to your political masters?

Robox,

It is now official, you really have a serious problem with comprehension. Didn't you see I have used the epithet "authoritative" with "scriptures"? (I suggest you press Control "F" and do a search of the word, and you will see the number of times I have used the word with "scriptures").

And, I have said "ad nauseam" that this is not the forum for discussing Hinduism. This place is for mundane politicians with mundane agendas. If you seek proofs--solid proofs... irrefutable evidence... incontrovertible proofs from authoritative Hindu scriptures, get up a Forum, and I shall meet you to discuss all your issues with the help of the authoritative scriptures. And there you will have enough evidence to debunk all your false, mischievous and fatuous ideas about Thaipusam.

You asked, "Are you also next going to claim that temple musical instruments should be banned at a Hindu marriage ceremony since it is also not in the scriptures?"

My reply to that inanity: They have the sanction of the scriptures. Meet me at the debate, and I shall show you the chapter and verses.

You insulted, "And who authored those scriptures that you speak of, anyway? The HEB? And is Lee Kuan Yew's the invisible hand in that authorship?"

My reply to that: This is what I mean by politicisation. Meet me, if you dare, in the public forum/debate, and I shall show you proofs which you can share with the coterie of your imbecile friends. (Not even a secular scholar with a doctorate in theology would deny my evidence.... Please give me a chance to prove your ignorance. Come out of your pseudonym and face me.)

And spare the mundane politicians here the pain of being exposed to intelligent arguments.

Sesquipedalian,

Don't make yourself look like the laughing fool in real life that you already are in this forum. Pretty big ego for a person who keeps harping on the same old boring points over and over again.

Authoritative Hindu scriptures? Really? Or are scriptures always open to interpretation? Even a scholar with a doctorate in theology can tell you that.

Dear, dear me. Someone, an Identity Fascist no less, hiding under the cloak of anonimity is challenging ME of all people, to abandon my nick that affords me my anonimity and go meet him at some yet to be organized forum that he has explicitly said that he will not be attending (though he seems to be wavering now).

Wow.

What can you say and prove to me at that yet to be organized forum, Sesquipedalian, that you cannot say and prove to me here?

And most importantly, WHY.

Just tell me that, and I WILL be at that forum.

Stop being as evasive as you have been throughout all this.

Or shut the f**k up.

Do you understand?

Sesquipedalian, I repeat:

"If you can provide scriptural proof of your extravagant claims at any forum, you can also provide that same proof here."

Do it, and prove that you have a single shred of credibility so that we may atend your yet to be organized forum.

BryanTi,

You said, "... keeps harping on the same old boring points over and over again."

My reply: You keep asking the same thing, and I have to keep repeating myself sick. It's as plain as that.

You said, "Authoritative Hindu scriptures? Really? Or are scriptures always open to interpretation? Even a scholar with a doctorate in theology can tell you that."

My reply: Authoritative scriptures are no literature texts that you can interpret the way you want.

Why do you talk so much---why can't you, on behalf of all those who have turned tail, take me on, and prove to the public that you are right and I am utterly wrong. Are you afraid to face the public that may be given the chance this time to confirm your idiocy?

Robox,

You said, "Dear, dear me. Someone, an Identity Fascist no less, hiding under the cloak of anonimity is challenging ME of all people, to abandon my nick that affords me my anonimity and go meet him at some yet to be organized forum that he has explicitly said that he will not be attending (though he seems to be wavering now)."

My reply: You must have failed your PSLE English. Seriously, Robox, I am certain. Read, and if you need to, re-read my postings (particularly the one to Seebeng), and tell me where I had said (as you claimed explicitly) that I won't attend THE public Forum!

I can see how desperate you are in running away from the challenge. Well, as you have made the bed, you would have to lie in it, chuck. Get up the Forum, and meet me publicly. Don't twist and turn, hem and haw, tap dance, welsh and worm your way out.

In your anxiety and timorous squirming, you pleaded, "If you can provide scriptural proof of your extravagant claims at any forum, you can also provide that same proof here."

My reply as always been: This forum is NOT for Hinduism, and for not discussing Hindu issues, and above scriptural evidence. (I have belaboured this point so many times that even the most boring guy is moving in his grave. Must I repeat myself?)

Hence, I keep telling you, eunuch, that meet me publicly for a PUBLIC DEBATE, and I shall show whatever evidence you and your circus of friends want to see---I would even get you free copies of all the scriptures I am going to make references to. In addition, I shall defray the entire cost of the Forum. How else can I entice you!

Won't you want to have a field day proving me wrong? Where else would this be possible except in a forum that will be attended by 100s (or perhaps more)! The media will be interested too, I am bound.

Come on, do not wriggle out! Weren't you the self-same coxcomb who prided on your non-existent "testicular fortitude"?

It is interestng to study the relationship between the CCP of China and the major religious groups in China.

Stop your twisting sesquipedalian answers lah

We are the public here.

Now take up the challenge by Robox and Seebeng on this article thread. Treat it as the 'forum'. Let the general readers of this site be your public audience.

AnnA,

So, there is now an "AnnA" for their rescue. Twisting and turning are the cowards' preserve.

Read my postings and you will know my reasons for a public debate. Do not waste my time, self-appointed "public". Have the courage to stand up in a PUBLIC FORUM and be counted. (Hide not dastardly behind pseudonyms).

"Cowards die many times before their deaths;
The valiant never taste of death but once..." [Julius Caesar Act 2, Scene 2]

LoL

What a snob :P

I am literally laughing out loud with your sesquipedalian answer on 'self-appointed "public"'...

If not public, then what?? As humble as 'public' also you cannot accept... go say that to LKY, he has been self appointing himself as MM for many years now :P

And you?? Self appointed "authoritative scripture director"?? Only you the smart one, no other people can interpret them is it??

Tell you what, this article is about unreasonable insensitive authoritative law set up via HEB by PAP. Not about disrespecting of ones' belief.

It seems like what you are defending is for your own view on discipline disregarding others' sensitivity. You don't care if it will affect others. You are simply a selfish mute.

AnnA,

You said, "I am literally laughing out loud..."

My reply: Can you metaphorically do that? (Silly!)

Don't you run away with the delusion that you have laughed me out of court. I am keeping my countenance, giving you the chance of your birth to prove that you have the courage of your convictions, i.e., to face bald facts boldly.

I shall meet the whole jingbang of you ALONE. Get up the Forum. Prove to the practising Hindu public and others alike that I AM manufacturing some theories in my backyard, and that whatever I have been saying here are mine, figments of my reckless imagination.

For all these, let me cite from the authoritative scriptures, verse by verse, in their original language, with transliteration and translation to show how misguided you fools have been.

Do not lavish the precious page here. Leave this site to the self-seeking politicians to bicker with one another.

@ Sesquipedalian

"Read my postings and you will know my reasons for a public debate. Do not waste my time, self-appointed "public". Have the courage to stand up in a PUBLIC FORUM and be counted. (Hide not dastardly behind pseudonyms)."

Speak for yourself, pot.

"For all these, let me cite from the authoritative scriptures, verse by verse, in their original language, with transliteration and translation to show how misguided you fools have been."

Please do! And may i suggest we do a forum in a bar, where we'll invite our friends for drinks and enjoy your stand-up comedy?

BryanTi,

Thanks for underscoring the very point that I have been belabouring all this while, i.e., this forum is not a place to discuss Hinduism, its tenets and authoritative scriptures. (It's beyond the ken of simpletons).

You have just shown me and everybody else the evidence by your facetious, thoroughly insensitive offending remarks about the world's oldest religion.

Sesquipedalian,

A simpleton like you who pretends to be an expert on the "Authoritative Hindu Scriptures" simply cannot understand how it is like to discuss things amicably. In this forum you have been wasting our time, going through the same old political rhetoric over and over again. You are the little emperor throwing a sissy fit here

So of course you are welcome to come to a forum cum stand-up comedy and make a fool of yourself, where you're most likely to offend even the most tolerant practicing Hindus around with your stupid rhetoric.

You said "You have just shown me and everybody else the evidence by your facetious, thoroughly insensitive offending remarks about the world's oldest religion." After this "Thanks for underscoring the very point that I have been belabouring all this while, i.e., this forum is not a place to discuss Hinduism, its tenets and authoritative scriptures. (It's beyond the ken of simpletons)."

In response of this BryanTi's "Please do! And may i suggest we do a forum in a bar, where we'll invite our friends for drinks and enjoy your stand-up comedy?" To talk about religion in a bar???? Sigh.. so disrespectful.

wah lau ey... siao tar por. whuakakakakaka!! Really... honest... I am LOL ^_^

You still miss the point, ain't you???

IT IS ABOUT RESTRICTING RIGHTS.

NOT ABOUT WRITTEN FORBIDDEN SCRIPTURES WHICH ONLY ALLOWS ONLY PANDIT OR BRAHMAN TO READ. And the rest of other castes knows nothing. :P

Why not? Actually i don't seem to note that Sesquipedalian would like to talk to us about religion. He just wants to talk us down, so i'm more than happy to oblige him in his self-indulgent reciting session where he's going to humiliate himself. Seriously.

Bars also serve non-alcoholic juices for those feeling squeamish. I'm sure to buy a drink for this fool while i'll watch his sick comedy.

Not talking about your offer.

Talking about his integrity... so disrespectful. But using his sesquipedalian way to comment, I am sure he will deny agreeing to you on a forum in a bar. o_O

Notice the "I AM" and discrimination towards fellow commentators??? He made himself sound like 'god' because he thinks only he knowzzzz and no one else does.... so high up liao....

capital = YULKS!!!

BryanTi,

Whether I am a "simpleton" or am SIMPLY coming down on you like a TON of bricks can be clearly seen from the way you are squirming now!

As you think I am "pretending" to profess knowledge of my religion and its authoritative scriptures, why don't you be your proud mother's son by taking me on publicly! (Note the punctuation mark).

Must you be scared of one who you think is a simpleton!(Note the punctuation mark again).

Have no doubt that we are going to discuss things "amicably" in the public forum. Come on, pick up the gauntlet and spare us your airy-fairy braggadocio.

Make your manly father proud of you when you face me publicly---I SHALL give you the delight of biting the dust.

AnnA,

What pundit? what brahman? What new red-herring you are endeavouring to introduce? Don't talk through your hat! Didn't I mention in my posting that you would be given authorised transliterated and translated works that I would be using to expose your picayune intelligence?

Or is it that you cannot punch your way out of a paper bag?

AnnA, it was actually Sesquipedalian who challenged both seebeng and I to a forum, a forum that he knows only too well that his political masters in the PAP will not allow because it is about a 'sensitive' topic: religion. (Of course, fear and lack of will are other reasons that Singaporeans NEVER take any type of political action.)

Since it was he who insisted that it is ONLY at a forum that this can be discussed, then isn't the onus on HIM to organize that forum? Or perhaps he only made that suggestion knowing very well that one will NEVER be organized in Singapore? And after that, he will declare himself the winner of a forum debate which never took place because 'those people didn't organize the forum' or 'they never turned up'.

Seebeng and I are quite content to have the same discussions right here or any online forum.

Problem: there are too many prying eyes, you see, and they belong to non-Hindus along with Hindus. And the HEB and its activists know very well that they cannot stand up to that scrutiny.

sesquipedalian (no more using capital 's' as you don't deserve any respect), you are a waste of my time. you stoop too low when you talked so big!(Note the punctuation mark)

u swished and u swoshed (my own version of twist and turn) ur words still come back to the same. very suiting name for you. no point debating cos there's no progress at all. perhaps in real life, many people walked away while you were talking.. boring! (Note the punctuation mark). if people have to listen also.. it's because people don't want to embarrass you! (Note the punctuation mark)
no wonder the others stop replying you, sian liao. you don't have the intellect to exchange views. you expect people must listen to you. you forgot you are not everyones' father! (Note the punctuation mark) ...you even belittled everyone who intend to speak up on behalf of those who are facing oppression by your so called HEB aka PAP.

i truly hope the lifeline on ur palm is short. so that you can stop tormenting others sooner. oh.. short lifeline on the palms of your comrades too! (Note the punctuation mark)

btw... ur snobbish attitude doesn't sound like it comes from a true blue Singaporean! (Note the punctuation mark) the snobbishness either comes from ivory tower or an egoist male chauvinist who just got your pink ic? (Note the question mark) because if he is true blue singaporean.. i guess he was speaking about himself failing to punch out of a paper bag? (note the question mark)

so.. take note : this will be my last reply to you, sesquipedalian. zzzz.. brain dead siak... zzzz...

AnnaA,

Laurence Sterne had once said, "respect for others guides our manners." [Oh well, that advice applies to humans, not to you, AnnA. So, fret not.]

You may have whatever versions of philosophy of life but they are beside the mark. That is the reason why I have been insistent that what I would present at the Public Debate/Forum shall be nothing short of evidence from "authorised" scriptures--- or, if you like, from "authenticated and authorised" scriptures.

If you have been looking for someone who would fill your idle time in your office or home engaging you in some time-wasting exchanges, then, evidently, you have been wasting your time with me. (The regrets are mine.)

I am for solid evidence, and especially evidence that would smother idlers and time-wasters who have no life outside the one-dimension internet forums. Hence, I have been inviting you and all other good-for-nothing fools here to take me on publicly to show to the world that I am wrong. But of course, I have been looking for intelligent people in the wrong place.

Your so-called others "stopped replying" to me cardinally because they have no substance, and on that score, you too would turned tail presently for you have nothing between your ears to take me on. You are just full of hot air---enough to fill the world's balloons.

I am not keen on anyone listening to me. Because you and the other horrible creations of Providence have been insistence on offering insult to Hinduism and its authoritative scriptures, I cannot spare you!

And, there is no issue of "belittling" anyone---little people like you would naturally feel little by virtue of the little that you have!

Once you are done with your veiled threats and old-wives-Tale types of curses, re-read my postings and get ready to face me for a debate in public. Get up a Public Forum where I shall meet you blighters.

Be a Man (even if you are not a biological man, it is fine---"man" here refers to "human being"), and have the courage to stand by your convictions, and fight with me in public where ALL your like-minded people of little minds can pulverize me.

Or, let me know how else I could entice you to take up this challenge. If you prefer to wear petty-coats, I can allow that for the sake of destroying you publicly.

Sesquipedalian,

Getting personal i see? Let's see if you are actually the brave African lion or the cowardly lion from the land of Oz! Will it be a fiery showdown at Speakers Corner, or will it be "No Action Talk Only (NATO)?"

I am suspecting it will be the latter, since as Robox has said, it's your onus to organize a forum since you want to prove us wrong. And oh, may i suggest you wear a lion costume, and i'll invite Dorothy down to guide you to the Wizard of Oz! You can choose to bring your dictionary down as well, if that assists you in humiliating yourself in front of fellow Hindus and non-Hindus!

Set the time, date and place, if you have the guts. So which lion are you going to be then?

Don't layan him lah. Don't know what kind mentality he has... whuahahaha

He is standing in a square surrounded by people, DEMANDING an audience for a public forum when all this while this website are meant for public to read. The public is already here... D'uh!!

This one talk so big liao. Luckily not literally speaking in public, or else lightning would be happy to strike one.

Remember when Yacoob Ibrahim talked so big about flood? And flood incidents came pouring in.

Don't layan him lah.

Robox, yes I agree. Never mind him, tong kosong also. People have eyes. The PUBLIC can read and reread.

^_^ Cheers and Happy Thaipusam (despite restriction)

Br(A)yanT (aka "Bray And Teed)

[Please check the dictionary what it says about your nick in parenthesis].

You said (of course with your proverbial attempt at a low red-herring): "Set the time, date and place, if you have the guts."

I reply: You please check to see whether YOU have yours intact.

Anyhow, let's settle on 20.2.2011 (Sun). Time--- any time: preferably between 9 am and 5 pm.

I have given you roughly a month TO get it up. I shall leave the choice of the place to you as you ARE getting it up.

However, my suggestion is, it shan't be anywhere near any place of worship or any place where people of a particular religion or race would assemble. I am fine with a hotel---but as I am defraying the costs, I would want it to be a 3-star hotel (nothing more).

As to the other miscellany of arrangements, viz., refreshments, etc., the costs shall not be borne by YOU. (This optional though).

Do not forget the conditions I had mentioned in my posting dated 13.1.2011 (timed 5.28 pm):

"....provided (of course) you and your friend should aver that you should come NOT as a representative of the SDP or any particular group or organisation but as () individuals who want to be disabused of your thoroughly misconceived notions about what Hinduism and Thaipusam mean."

Instead of talking the hind legs off a donkey, you get down to brass tacks right now.

(By the way, in your case should it be "...braying the hind legs..."....?)

AnnA (aka Tong Kosong),

Heard of "empty vessels make the most noise"? Hence, put the lid on, and roll off!

Sesquipedalian,

Who the hell cares what my name means. It's not even my real name in the first place.

Cut the crap. Don't come and give such nonsense that it shall not be here or there, preferably from 9pm to 5pm, whether you are fine with a hotel, or whether we are having refreshments. Is this how you organize things? If you want to pay for food, please do. We welcome someone to defray our meal costs for the day.

Come straight to the point and stop being a Sesquipedialian. Don't go round the bush and come back saying you prefer 3-star and giving stupid conditions for such a forum. Pick the bloody place, since the onus is on you to PROVE YOURSELF.

Time, date, place, NOW, Mr Still No Action Talk Only.

Br(A)yanT (aka "Bray And Teed),

Stop braying and remain focused---something which I know you are thoroughly incapable of.

My posting says it all: it's so clear that even an unborn child should understand what it says. The ball is your court, twerp---I have given you the date and the time. Now, fix on the place and get it up. I am more than ready to destroy your infected, bloated, putrefying ego!

Can't wait. Please do it now! And don't give excuses!

(Before you put your filthy fingers on the keyboard to dash off another unpalatable nonsense, read what I had told the useless Seebeng on 14.1.2011 and 15.1.2011).

Oh, so that's what Sesquipedalian's idea of a public forum is, huh? A private one-to-one meeting at a hotel room. (Maybe, he will also be arranging for the ISD to be waiting outside.)

To laugh or to cry?

Robox,

Do not talk too much, jester---you JUST concentrate on responding to my challenge (dated Sat 15 Jan 2011 11:06 AM) to you.

We do not need a comic relief.

Sesquipedalian,

You want to call the forum, do it. IT IS YOUR ONUS to prove us wrong, and to set date time place. Seems like your bloated ego cannot understand your own postings on the 14 Jan. You bray too much till you are incapable of remembering what you have just said, is it? Do you need a contact for a witch doctor who can restore your memory?

We are just waiting for you to stop worming your way out of your responsibility to call the forum, since you very well want to humiliate yourself. SO, self-obsessed Jester so full of yourself, set the Date, Time and Place. NOW.

Br(A)yanT (aka "Bray And Teed),

Do you mind if I call you (an) "Idiot" (with a capital "I")? I am sure even if you do, anyone with some sense (reading our postings) would allow me that latitude. (Do not fume (or hee-haw)---read on to see why I have given you that apt epithet).

In response to Seebeng's remark (dated 13.1.2011, 6.24 pm):

"Why don't you quote the chapter and verse from the supposed authoritative scripture that you are trying to rely upon? My committed Hindu friends are prepared to take you on this,"

I told him, "Now we are getting somewhere. Not only would I be pleased---more than JUST pleased--- to cite the authoritative scriptures, but also am prepared to take your soi-disant 'committed Hindu friends' on publicly for a PUBLIC DEBATE... A public debate should settle the matter..."

At NO time did I EVER SAY that I would get up a Forum---in fact, it was you stinking bag of maggots who have been asking me for evidence from the authoritative Hindu scriptures to corroborate my points. Hence, as you cretins were so desirous of punishment, I, obliging your fetish, told you buffoons to get up a Forum.

In all my four postings between 15.1.2011 and 20.1.2011, I had consistently been saying that the responsibility of getting up the Public Forum was all of yours, and you had placidly accepted that suggestion---none of you contradicted:

1) See my reply (dated 15.1.2011, 4.03 am) to Robox,
2) See my reply (dated 15.1.2011, 11.06 am) to Robox and to YOU,
3) See my reply (dated 17.1.2011, 1.02 pm) to AnnA, and
4) See my reply (dated 20.1.2011, 4.45 am) to AnnA.

[In case you do not know what the phrasal verb "get up" means, I have here cited two dictionaries:

a) Cambridge International Dictionary of Phrasal verbs: 'get up something or get something up' means 'to organize something'.

b) Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary:
'get something up' means 'to arrange or organize something'.]

Now, you tell me who "cannot understand (one's) own postings"? Who is "incapable of remembering what (one has) just said"? And who do you think "need a contact for a witch doctor who can restore your memory"?

Do not ass around: it is quite apparent that you are buying time. You would only make an ass yourself by backing down now. That won't do, colt.

Sesquipedalian,

Don't mind if i call you a pusillanimous idiot. Anyone who has been reading this thread would allow me that latitude. In case you do not know what the word pusillanimous means, let me cite a dictionary:

1. Princeton
lacking in courage and manly strength and resolution; contemptibly fearful

2. Merrian Webster
lacking courage and resolution : marked by contemptible timidity

I just realized you don't have a mirror! Go get one, because you need to look at yourself to see what a pusillanimous idiot is!

You have proven your stupidity beyond doubt! Your understanding of the entire situation is pathetic. You talk BIG. And you come armed with Oxford and Cambridge dictionaries to try to worm yourself out of this! How pathetic can this be? Since you're the one blowing hot air around trying to prove that you're right with the Hindu Scriptures. anyone who may read this thread can see you are trying really really hard to whack us but you've got no guts to go to a forum unless you can push this responsibility to others. Oh where is your man-strength and courage?

Everyone knows what the terms "get up" mean, but such a cowardly lion like you does not seem to understand the meaning of "onus," "responsibility, "set the date, time and place". Perhaps you are more comfortable hiding behind the keyboard and being an online coward, trying to squirm away from perhaps the most uncomfortable double humiliation of organizing a forum and then losing it! Even your mother and father would be ashamed of your haughty gutless actions here!

So it is fine if you can't set the date, time and place. It is not seebeng's, robox or anna's responsbility here. It is yours, and if you don't fulfill it, sure, squirm quietly away and bray with the rest of your cowardly friends, pusillanimous idiot.

Br(A)yanT (aka "Bray And Teed),

Of course, I would mind if you call me anything other than a "practising Hindu". Because I am an overqualified practising Hindu.

You have run out of ammo, colt---you are at your tether's end; you have realised that you are out on a limb; you are desperate to save yourself---hence, you have even taken recourse to plagiarising my posting.

(Actually, I am quite fine with that---for people plagiarise only the works of the finest. Hence, I am fine with your misdeed.)

Unless you are a snake, you should not twist and turn, wriggle and wiggle, slither and blather, hide and lie. All others, starting with Shamin, have scampered into their hell holes of shame. I hope you will meet me in the Public Forum to show what an honourable mother's son you are.

You said, "Everyone knows what the terms "get up" mean..."

I reply to you: But you don't. None of you knows. If you claim you do, then, why didn't you object to my suggestion that you organise the event?---not once but four times did I mention that in my four postings. Why didn't you?

You said, "you does (sic) not seem to understand the meaning of 'onus,'..."

My reply to you: You and your troop of donkeys have consistently been accepting my suggestion (without even the slightest protestation) from 15.1.2011 to organise the Public Forum---and now when you are cornered, when your back is against the wall, and when you find yourself in the dead-end of ideas, you have changed horses in midstream by imputing the responsibility of getting up the event to me. A convenient but foolish antic like this is usually conjured up by an unmitigated base-born.

If you were an honest person, and had known what the phrasal verb ("get up") meant, and had been serious about the Public Debate/Forum, why didn't you (or at least the multitude of others who responded to me) express reservations about my suggestion that you fools get up the event? Why have you been keeping mum until NOW? [Show me but one piece of evidence in my postings that I had said that I would organise the Forum/Debate.]

Evidence (that I have presented in the posting previous to this) shows that all along you and your wastrels knew that one of the conditions of the Public Forum was you low-born should organise the debate.

I am not going to spare you. You must meet me in the Public Forum, which you donkeys had promised to organise. Or tell me what scares you? I am willing to vary the conditions a little, if your fears are reasonable.

Sesquipedalian,

My friend, got to give you points for at least trying! May the gods bless you! What tenacity! Amazing! I would be proud to have you as my adversary, if only you weren't a pusillanimous dud.

Looking through the entire thread i pretty much confirmed the fact that no donkeys promised to organize anything! This is not a zoo! The human beings have certainly enjoyed your various droppings here, though, even as we may be interested in meeting you at the forum, we are rather bored with your assertion that we promised anything! My goodness!

And you still don't understand what it means, as a matter of PRINCIPLE, for you, who has something to prove, to organize your own forum to prove us wrong! Or perhaps you have no principles at all, but just a lot of hot steam and vitriol?

I shall wait until the day you get out of the right side of bed and realize what i have said is pretty much very reasonable, and it's you who's fearing the light of day. Otherwise i'd love to not spare your cowardly self and take you on again right here, should i have any spare time on my hands.